Thursday, June 20, 2013

REFUTATION TO SAAMI ZAATARI'S ARTICLE: EVOLUTION OF JESUS PART 2

As I have made clear before since Saami won't Debate me then I'll have to refute his arguments myself. I had recently made a refutation to Saami's Articles: The Evolution of Jesus and I will continue from where I had left off. The Section that I highlight will be the Part I will be refuting in this Article.

Here is Saami's Article:



The Evolution on the character of Jesus in the New Testament Gospels
  

As we read the first 4 Gospels of the NT, it becomes apparently clear that character of Jesus keeps on changing from one Gospel to another. Bassam Zawadi has already written one article on this issue which can be located here:


In this article I will simply show some more verses from the NT showing this evolution taking place on the character of Jesus.

To begin with, let us first give the order in which the Gospels were written:

Mark
Matthew
Luke
John

The Gospel of Mark was the first Gospel to be written, and as we read on the later Gospels, we find that the other authors are modifying the story and trying to make Jesus look different, something more than he is.   

So let us now go and see these modifications:

The Baptism of Jesus:

Mark 1:9-13

And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.Let us now read how Matthew modified the story:

Matthew 3:13-17

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Note the difference between the two accounts. In the earlier account of Mark, Jesus simply comes to get baptized and does it. In Matthew's version we see Jesus coming to get baptized only this time John protests against it, because he thinks that Jesus does not need to be baptized, and that Jesus does not need to be baptized by John but it is John who needs to be baptized by Jesus.

This is an obvious modification to the story, Matthew modified the story to simply make it look better, and to make Jesus look better.

The one to come after John

In each Gospel account we first see the apostle John speaking about Jesus, the one to come after him, but when we read each account, each one is different and each one is changing to make Jesus look more special.  

Mark 1:5-8

And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Let us now read what John's Gospel says:

John 1:15-35

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophetEsaias24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. 28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Note the major differences in both accounts now. The Gospel of John which is the last Gospel to have been written adds many more things. It calls Jesus a lamb of God, the man to take the sin of the world, that he was preferred before John etc. In Mark all we see is that John says a man will come after than him, who is mightier and greater than himself.

Jesus' death on the cross

Mark 15:33-41

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, EloiEloi, lamasabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias. 36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down. 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. 38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. 39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; 41 (Who also, when he was inGalilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
So basically Jesus dies, cries out to God, and the people who watched said truly he is the son of God. Let us now read Matthew's version:

Matthew 27:45-56
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? thatis to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. 48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,Truly this was the Son of God. 55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

 
Note the major difference. Now in Matthew's version we see that after Jesus dies a major earthquake happens, and that the saints rise from the dead and start walking throughJerusalem!!!!! This is an obvious evolution in the text, once again Matthew is trying to make things seem better and more special, and try to make an impact on his reader.  

The criminals beside Jesus on the Cross

When we read the crucifixion story, we read that there were two other men to be crucified along Jesus as well, they were crooks and were being punished for their crimes. However this is one of the best examples of how this simple fact was modified into something very special and lovely.

Mark 15:25-32

25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him. 26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. 28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saithAnd he was numbered with the transgressors. 29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, 30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross. 31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save. 32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Matthew 27:33-44

33 And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull, 34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. 35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots. 36 And sitting down they watched him there; 37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. 39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, 40 And saying, Thou thatdestroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. 41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, 42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. 43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. 44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth

So basically Mark and Matthew are in basic agreement. We do not see anything special happening with the thieves who were to also be crucified, in fact Matthew shows that they too also disbelieved In Jesus.
However let us now read Luke's version:

Luke 23:32-43

32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. 33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. 35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. 36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, 37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself. 38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shaltthou be with me in paradise.

So now in Luke's version we see that one of the criminals began to believe in Jesus and that he asked Jesus to remember him when he got to heaven, something Jesus said he would do. Wow if that's not an evolution in the text then I don't know what is.

Luke obviously modified the story from the two earlier accounts of Mark and Matthew, and wanted to make it seem as a great lovely moment to bring tears to the eyes of the reader who believed this.

The lady who touched Jesus

Mark 5:28-34

28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. 29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Matthew slightly modified this story which becomes obvious:

Matthew 9:20-22

20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment: 21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. 22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole.

Notice the difference between both accounts. In Matthews's version he leaves the part about Jesus asking who touched him out. Matthew seems to have a problem with Jesus asking the people who had touched him; it obviously doesn't look good for Matthew and later scribes who would want to make Jesus look divine. So Matthew or some scribe purposely left it out.

And Allah knows best

And Let us now begin:

Saami Alleges a supposed evolution or modification in the Gospels in regards to the one to come after John.

Here is what he said "In each Gospel account we first see the apostle John speaking about Jesus, the one to come after him, but when we read each account, each one is different and each one is changing to make Jesus look more special. "

So again he keeps saying that each Gospel writer is changing Jesus's character, when number one all wrote different portraits of Jesus's life and number 2 some of the authors added specific details that there's others haven't that's what Saami needs to take into account first and then go from there.

It's called telescoping or summarizing, which News Papers Do all the time!!!!!!!!

However that's not even Saami's problem because he misquoted the context and I will expose his deception to show guys that The words that John uttered about the lamb of God weren't on the same day or time as Marks Gospel.

He then quotes the Mark and John's Gospel to prove the supposed modification.

I will Post all back to back


Mark 1:5-8

And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

So According to Mark John testifies of one coming who is greater than him.


John 1:15-35

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophetEsaias24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. 28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!


So according to John John testifies of one coming who greater than him who is the lamb of God who takes the sin of the world.

Saami then says " Note the major differences in both accounts now. The Gospel of John which is the last Gospel to have been written adds many more things. It calls Jesus a lamb of God, the man to take the sin of the world, that he was preferred before John etc. In Mark all we see is that John says a man will come after than him, who is mightier and greater than himself."

Even If I gave Saami the Benefit of the doubt,The answer to this question from Saami, is simple Mark did not include the details that John Included, he summarized them. Mark obviously had a purpose for why he didn't include details that John did while on the contrary John had a purpose he included more details that Mark didn't include.

News Paper Organizations do this all the time, they don't record every detail that happened they include specific events  to suit their own purposes.

So Saami's making a desperate argument because he just condemned thousand of News Papers that get published every day that he himself reads.

Now this would be my answer to Saami's argument If I were to give him the Benefit of the doubt

 HOWEVER Saami needs to learn how to read the context because I will show you guys later later that what John said about Jesus regarding the lamb of God ect...

WAS ACTUALLY A DIFFERENT DAY!!!!!!

I will re post the verses and show how desperate and foolish Saami's arguments are:


 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

So people from Jerusalem and Jordan where Baptized by John. And John Testified to someone who is GREATER THAN HIM, notice how John himself is a prophet and he is saying that someone who coming will be greater than him who shoes aren't worthy to be untied. And that he will baptize the people with water and the one to come will baptize with the holy ghost.

Now Let's Move over to John Gospel:


John 1:15-35

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophetEsaias24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. 28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Note the major differences in both accounts now. The Gospel of John which is the last Gospel to have been written adds many more things. It calls Jesus a lamb of God, the man to take the sin of the world, that he was preferred before John etc. In Mark all we see is that John says a man will come after than him, who is mightier and greater than himself.

Notice how at the start of verse 29 it says the Next Day, so all the talk about John being Elijah and how Jesus is in the bosom of the Father and the priest questioning John all happened a Day before. 

Now let's read what John says the Next Day: 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

So now the next day John sees Jesus and proclaims that he's the Lamb of God that takes the sin of the world. The verse that Saami quoted in Mark was the day before when John talks about Jesus who is the one to come. So all the supposed modifications that Saami is talking about is honestly ridiculous because they are DIFFERENT DAYS.

 Because Notice John says he saw the spirit descending on him which is past tense meaning the Baptism already happened.

So the day when John calls the Jesus the lamb of God it is after the baptism of Jesus took place, while Mark it's before the Baptism took place.

Because when Saami quotes Mark 1:5-8 if he had read the context starting from verse 9  all the way to verse 11 this what we read " 9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.10Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”


So according to verse 9-11 Jesus get's baptized  after John the Baptist utter the words about Jesus being the one to come that Saami quoted.

However John does not include the Baptism of Jesus, he mentions how John saw dove descend on Jesus and in the very same context he testifies of Jesus being the Lamb of God making it a different day.


And another thing even if it was on the same day and I gave Saami the benfit of the doubt.What does Saami do with all the passages in Marks Gospel where Jesus states his purpose was to come and give his life for sinners which pefectly agrees with John about the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

Here is just one among many verses in Mark Gospels:

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

So according to Mark 10:45 Jesus came to give his life a ransom for many and some how this is an evolution when both John and Mark perfectly agree with each other.

Saami again assumes that Just because Mark does not include details that John did then it's some how this is false when many many times now I have said that not every author includes every specific details that the others have.

So Saami just condemns literally every News Paper organization. Also the fact of the matter is these are different days, when John said that Jesus was the Lamb of God this was a different day because 1 it says so in verse 39 of John.And John said that he SAW which is past tense the Dove descending on Jesus. And also when you read Mark staring from verse 9 all the way to verse 11, John Baptizes Jesus after John talks about the one to come which is the verses that Saami showed us, however in John's Gospel when John calls Jesus the lamb of God he says this in Past tense of how he saw the dove.

So Saami actually made a blank case because these are Different Days and this why I keep saying how pathetic Bassam and Saami's arguments are when we read the context.

And Saami again condemns his Prophet because he used the very books that condemn Muhammad as a False prophet.

Also Notice again in verse 36 it was another day when John again said Behold the Lamb of God.

So much for a supposed Evolution!!!!!!

Glory to Jesus

I will continue my refutation to Saami's Article













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